I thought that folks might like to keep an eye on how this case is settled. I'm thinking most Pennsic ceremonies use non-congregational officiants, so this could be a problem.

abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story
posted by:
Jeni
offline Jeni
Allentown
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  • Coeu...
    Coeur Noir
    offline 16

    Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:39 AM
    The solution for those who wish to have a ceremony at Pennsic is extremely simple. Get legally married in your State of Residence at your local courthouse. Then you can have your "official ceremony" wherever the heck you want, however the heck you want, and BY whoever the heck you want.

    Why does everyone feel the need to make something relatively simple so complicated? You avoid any potential legal problems by nipping them in the bud. Many states have residency requirements for marriages to be legally performed within their jurisdictions.

    No disrespect of any of you officiating folks, but I can get "ordained" online by paying a fee and sending off for a certificate, and so can anyone else. It sounds as though the State is questioning the validity of certain types of "officiating entities" as reguarding the proper filing of paperwork. In other words... someone didn't get their fee. Either for the registration of the official with the State, or the license office. The ACLU is famous for making mountains out of molehills.
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    • Summer
      Summer
      offline 11

      Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

      Tue, April 1, 2008 - 11:14 AM
      "The ACLU is famous for making mountains out of molehills. "

      Sure, because having someone invalidate your marriage after you've already been married for several months or even **thirty years** just because the priest or minister didn't have an actual congregation at the time is just a tiny little molehill, no big deal.... NOT!

      Also, the last time I checked, the Jesuits weren't ordaining priests online.
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      • Coeu...
        Coeur Noir
        offline 16

        Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

        Tue, April 1, 2008 - 12:14 PM
        *eyeroll* I didn't say that invalidating someones marriage was okay. I find it rather odd that the state would go to those lengths. But then again, I find a lot of things done by states to be rather ridiculous. Like thinking not selling beer on Sundays will stop people from drinking on "the Lords Day". As if.

        And no, obviously a Jesuit wouldn't be getting their accreditation online, don't be ridiculous. However, the question remains as to whether the proper paperwork was filed AND the appropriate palms greased. That's the way government has always worked, and the way it will always work, no matter who holds the reins of power.
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        • Summer
          Summer
          offline 11

          Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

          Wed, April 2, 2008 - 12:52 PM
          "But then again, I find a lot of things done by states to be rather ridiculous."

          You and me both. And sometimes, even 'ridiculous' doesn't begin to cover it.

          "Like thinking not selling beer on Sundays will stop people from drinking on "the Lords Day". As if."

          Indeed. I want a beer, I'm going to have a beer. I don't care what day it is; why should anyone else?

          "However, the question remains as to whether the proper paperwork was filed AND the appropriate palms greased."

          Now there's the point, though. It shouldn't have to do with "greasing palms"; however, I don't have a problem with wedding officiants having to register with the states they're planning to perform marriages in. In fact, I think in Ohio you do have to be registered to perform marriages; merely being an "ordained minister" is not enough. Then again, I'd be even happier if the US would do as the UK does and separate religious marriage from civil marriage altogether, thereby removing any illusion that organized religion has any right to define civil marriage. But that's a whole other can of worms for an entirely different discussion.

          I will say this, though: the ACLU isn't doing anything wrong here. *Somebody* had to make a stink about this in order to get it rectified.
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          • Coeu...
            Coeur Noir
            offline 16

            Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

            Wed, April 2, 2008 - 1:11 PM
            I think that's probably at the root of this particular suit. Whether or not the officiants are "licensed" to conduct cerimonies in that particular state. From what I'd noticed in PA, they fee and tax practically everdayumthang. I mean the state runs all the package stores for cryin' out loud!

            If that's not a classic example of the gubmint having their hands in everyone's pockets I don't know what is. That's really what I meant by "greasing palms".... you gotta pay your nickel if you wanna ride.

            I have to agree, ironic isn't it that the British have done a better job of keeping Church and State separated than we have.... of course, most of our Forefathers were more or less tossed out of every sane country in Europe for being religious extremists. ; ) Well... except mine, they fled because of Mussolini and a dead end job (literally) in La Cosa Nostra.
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        • Jeni
          Jeni
          offline 8

          Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

          Thu, April 3, 2008 - 5:54 AM
          Nowhere in that article does it state that it's about whether the officiant had registered or paid a fee, though. They just state that the officiant must have a regular congregation that they are in charge of.
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          • Summer
            Summer
            offline 11

            Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

            Thu, April 3, 2008 - 9:05 AM
            And that's what bothers me so much. Not only does it mean not being able to have your uncle who happens to be a retired Methodist minister officiate, or the rabbi from your campus Hillel, **even though these people may well have already been licensed by the state to perform marriages in the past, when they served congregations**, but is Pennsylvania seriously unaware that there are entire religions out there which do not follow the "congregation and minister" model at all? It's almost as if they're saying that only Christians, Jews, Muslims and perhaps Sikhs and Buddhists should be allowed to have weddings in their own faith, and everyone else either needs to have a justice of the peace do it or else they have to have it in a faith not their own.

            Which makes this a First Amendment issue, to my mind. Therefore it is indeed a matter of civil liberties being violated. Which is EXACTLY where the ACLU comes in, and rightfully so. That's what they're for.
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            • Vale...
              Valentin Lyme
              offline 65

              Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

              Thu, April 3, 2008 - 10:02 AM
              Ok Ex wife was the lady of her active coven at the time adn legally performed several handfastings/marriage ceremonies and this was a rule then. A coven constituted a legal congregation in PA. What's the problem?

              Don't answer that. I agreethat there are still issues with this law, but I no longer live in Pa, and am no longer married to that lady, and do not foresee needing to be "legally" married again in Pa or elsewhere.
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              • Summer
                Summer
                offline 11

                Re: People married at Pennsic or planning to -- PA legal controversy about officiants sans congregations

                Thu, April 3, 2008 - 10:28 AM
                Sorry.... I can't help it. I have to answer.

                The problem isn't necessarily PA itself, from what I've found and read so far. The problem is, apparently, a judge in one particular county of PA, or possibly judges in two or three counties. This isn't an issue at state level, at least not at this time. It looks like the judge in the story linked to in the OP has chosen an interpretation of PA law that is at odds with 1) the way the law is interpreted at state level and in other counties, and 2) may be at odds with the way the law itself is written.

                More research may reveal more details, as I find time.

                I'm not planning to get legally married in PA either, of course.
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